breach every day. i know my colleagues are as well because we embrace our responsibility to protect that promise of fear elections for our country and will continue to defend results of the elections, whatever they may be this fall. that is our message to the president. you can come at us with all the threats you want and it does create a harrowing environment for us to work through, but at the same time we will not be deterred from doing our job to protect the voice and votes of every citizen of this country. >> a profile in courage. michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson, thank you on behalf of people interested in democracy. >> thanks for having me, alex. that is our show for this evening. now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, my friend. >> good evening, alex. you know what i was wondering last night? i was wondering i think what mary trump thinks about what her uncle was experiencing and luckily she is going to join us

and tell us exactly that. >> i mean the personal psychology of what the country witnessed last night is really something extraordinary. a deep, dark dive into one man's broken mind is what i would like to call it, but i am waiting to hear how mary trump diagnoses it. >> that is what we are in for. thank you, alex. >> have a great show. >> thank you. so three full years of stupid press coverage of kamala harris has finally come to an end. after three years of washington reporters turning over the question of what's wrong with kamala harris, last night they finally got their answer. nothing. nothing is wrong with kamala harris. nothing ever was. they didn't think she could do this. here is just a sample of headlines covering the vice presidency of kamala harris. one year, where did it go wrong for her? the washington post.

the kamala harris staff exodus reignites questions about her leadership style and future ambitions. the new york times. kamala harris is trying to define her vice presidency. even her allies are tired of waiting. this headline from politico. not a healthy environment. rife with dissent. and from the atlantic, kamala harris problem. few people seem to think she is ready to be president. why? why? maybe because the washington news media had been doing everything i possibly could to deliver the message that kamala harris was not ready for the presidency for three full years. if you spend one minute reading any of those articles, you wasted that minute and if you are forced professionally to spend more than a minute, as i was, you learned nothing about the real kamala harris, which is the point of those articles. the conceit of that kind of

journalism is that the reporter can get the inside story about who kamala harris really is, how she really operates and how we should value her as a political player. these articles are supposed to tell you whether she can someday do what we all saw her do last night and none of those articles predicted. this program has been covering kamala harris longer than all the news organizations whose headlines we just read. she first appeared on this program when she was district attorney of san francisco and last appeared on this program in december when a dump harris movement was brewing. at that time there were some who thought the way to deal with joe biden's age in the reelection campaign was to get a different vice presidential candidate who the country was able to see as a strong potential president, because obviously according to the

pushers of this theory, no one could see kamala harris that way. as i've said repeatedly on this program, i saw kamala harris as a potential presidential candidate and potential president the day i met her in a small group meeting in los angeles in 2009. it was that obvious then. viewers of this program repeatedly had the opportunity to see kamala harris that way, as a potential president and i would hope that faithful viewers of this program were not at all surprised by what they saw on the debate stage last night. vice president harris being the same person she has always been. easily crushing the 78-year-old convicted felon standing across the room from her, afraid to ever even look at her. both of those candidates on the debate stage last night were exactly who they have always

been. in december, on this program, the vice president offered us a preview of some of what we heard last night. i asked the vice president then what she thought about donald trump saying that immigrants, like her parents, poisoned the blood of our country. >> i was raised, as you know, a child of parents who are active in the civil rights movement and i was raised knowing that there will be some people who will use their voice in a way that is meant to dehumanize. meant to suggest that the vast majority of us don't have anything in common, when in fact the vast majority of us have more in common than what separates us and i would interpret it i think then as i would do now, which is it is language that is meant to divide us. it is language that i think people have rightly found

similar to the language of hitler and it is incredibly important that we remind each other, including our children, that the true measure of the strength of a leader is based not on who they beat down, but who they lift up and sadly i think that there is something perverse that has happened in our country over the last many years, which is to suggest that strength looks like a bully, when in fact the real character of a leader is someone who has empathy. someone who has some level of concern and care for the suffering of other people and does something to alleviate that suffering. >> one important democrat told me that that night, in that interview on that program was the first time he could really see kamala harris as a president. here is some of what the vice president said in that interview about reproductive

freedom, some of which you heard her say last night. >> this is about real people every day suffering and many of them suffering silently. we just saw the young woman and what happened to her. you know, you are on at 10:00 at night, so i'm going to assume that adults are watching, lawrence. we have to be real on this. in our country right now there are women having miscarriages in toilets. there are women who cannot afford to go to a state that will allow them access to the healthcare they need, who are suffering. there is only one state in the south and that is virginia that has still retained a law that allows a woman to make decisions about her own body. and so this is an issue that, yes, i do believe will be resolved in november of next year, because i do know that

the american people fight for freedom and believe in a woman's right to make decisions about her own body. >> they were writing the what's wrong with kamala harris articles then. when she was delivering interviews like that on this program. she was the same person. the same person you saw last night. that is the same person i first heard in 2009 and the same person on the debate stage last night. nothing changed, but what we saw on the debate stage last night was a big surprise to the reporters and editors turning out all of those articles about kamala harris for the past three years. a big surprise to most of the washington press corps who could not clearly see the person right in front of them for those three years. here is another part and i am showing you this only because of how important it is, the way the vice president has been covered the last three years,

why it feels like a surprise to so many people that she was so strong last night and here is another part of her role in the world that was completely ignored by most of those articles that turned out to be so wrong about kamala harris. >> from the moment that i saw that video, i've been waiting to ask you, what did that moment feel like?

>> that was pure joy, you know? we all hope in our lives that we can have an impact in a way that hopefully inspires or gives people a sense of confidence in what is possible for themselves and who they love and their community. it was very special, lawrence. thanks for sharing that clip. i had not seen that. it was very special and you know, you have heard me say many times, my mother would say to me, you may be the first to do many things. make sure you are not the last. i have been fortunate and blessed during the course of being vice president have many situations where it becomes clear to me that there are, you know, people of every age and gender, by the way, who see something about being the first that lets them know they don't need to be limited by other

people's limited understanding of who can do what and i think that is important and it relates to all people and so thank you for sharing that with me. thank you. >> that should not have been the first time the vice president was seeing that video. it should've been everywhere. i had shown that video on this program nine months before that, but i did not see it anywhere else because the political press wasn't really trying to report on what kamala harris was really doing is vice president. they were simply trying to collect gossip and sell it to you is wisdom and insight about who kamala harris really is and it was worse with the right wing media of course on fox. a venomous republican senator from louisiana said, the vice president needs to work on being a little more articulate. english is not her first, second, third, or even fourth language. the movement to replace joe biden on the ticket was also always a movement to replace

kamala harris on the ticket. one of the earliest and certainly the wisest leaders of the movement was ezra klein who in february and the new york times wrote, quote, everybody i talked to about this, literally everybody, has brought up the same fear. in theory she should be the favorite, but she pulls slightly worse than biden. democrats don't trust she will be a stronger candidate, but they worry if she wasn't chosen it would rip the party apart. a large group of democrats should compete for the nomination if president biden stepped down and kamala harris probably would not when that nomination. ezra klein was of course smart enough to admit that the contested convention scenario could go very badly. my only contribution to the scenarios when they were being discussed was that the only possible alternative nominee to

joe biden as i saw it was kamala harris and that is the way it turned out and joe biden dropped out. 27 minutes later endorsed kamala harris and within hours she had enough delegates to secure the nomination, so they were wrong about her abilities. they were wrong about what would happen if joe biden dropped out of the race and they were very, very wrong about what would happen with kamala harris on the presidential debate stage this year. donald trump was no doubt one of the big believers of that large pile of journalistic trash that was turned out about vice president harris. so i think along with most of the washington press corps, we can count donald trump as one of the people who was very surprised by what happened on that debate stage. for every presidential candidate prior to donald trump, the debate stage has revealed next to nothing about how they

would actually handle the job of the presidency. the debates definitely revealed policy differences, but they usually don't reveal much more about the person. every debate donald trump has ever participated in has revealed that he does not know how to be president of the united states and last night's debate, thanks to kamala harris, revealed that he does not know how to be a human being. beginning with the entrance of the candidates. donald trump obviously entered with a plan to not shake hands. vice president harris entered with the opposite plan and she took full charge of that moment. very much against donald trump's will. >> let's now welcome the candidates to the stage. vice president kamala harris and president donald trump.

>> kamala harris. thank you. >> welcome to you both. >> trumpeters, you see timidly and slowly on the left side of your screen, thinking maybe slowing his walk down would give him a later, cooler entrance, but kamala harris, 20 years younger, strides in purposely, straight for donald trump and instantaneously establishes domination over him. we are going to do this my way is the subtext of what she is saying to donald trump with that outstretched hand. for 90 minutes she spoke directly to the american people. sometimes directly to donald trump and when she wasn't speaking she was always turning and listening to donald trump, the way a human being would.

and in her way to emphasize, by her listening, the absurdity of what donald trump was saying with her human reactions to what she was hearing. donald trump chose two modes at the podium. the angry and bitter 78-year- old man, while he was speaking, and the mug shot face while he was listening. he did not once dare to turn and look at the vice president of the united states when she was speaking. just mug shot face. he wasn't looking at the moderators, either. he wasn't looking at us through the camera. he was looking at nothing, just lost in the wilderness of his own confusion of what was happening to him and what was happening to him was that he was being beaten much worse than any losing candidate in any presidential debate in history. what you saw in kamala harris

was simply the most overwhelmingly strong performance by a presidential debater in the history of presidential debates, which began only in 1960, so it isn't very long and you can watch every one of them online. most presidents never debated anyone. i am sure john kerry won all three of his debates against george w. bush. i've never seen a better presidential debater. but john kerry didn't when those debates by some giant margin. the giant margin last night. there are no great, memorable lines from the winners of presidential debates. until now. >> i have talked with military leaders, some of whom worked with you and they say you are a disgrace. >> young people might not know that prior to the political career of donald trump, no candidate in a presidential debate ever dreamed of saying

that the other candidate is a disgrace. that could not happen until donald trump brought his life of crime and disgrace to the presidential debate stage. last night, donald trump lied to the voters about the voters. when he claimed that everyone wanted roe v. wade to be overturned. donald trump climbed everyone, democrats, republicans, independents, everyone watching wanted roe v. wade to be overturned even though an overwhelming majority of the american people did not wanted overturned and so, after donald trump lied to the american people about the american people and what they wanted, vice president harris said this. >> donald trump certainly should not be telling a woman what to do with her body. i have talked with women around our country.

you want to talk about this is what people wanted? pregnant women who want to carry a pregnancy to term, suffering from a miscarriage and being denied carry in an emergency room because healthcare providers are afraid that they might go to jail and she is bleeding out in a car in a parking lot. she didn't want that. her husband didn't want that. a 12 or 13-year-old survivor of incest, being forced to carry a pregnancy to term. they don't want that and i pledge to you when congress passes a bill, to put back in place the protections of roe v. wade. as president of the united states i will proudly sign it into law. >> the same person. that was the same person i first heard speak in 2009. that was the same person you heard on this program in december. there was nothing surprising about any of that, except to the people who were never paying attention to the real kamala harris.

donald trump's response that was, of course, a lie. >> they have abortion in the ninth month. they even have, you can look at the governor of west virginia, the previous governor of west virginia, not the current governor. doing an excellent job. but the governor before. he said the baby will be born and we will decide what to do with the baby. in other words we will execute the baby. >> there is no state in this country where it is legal to kill a baby after it is born. i want to get your response to president trump. >> imagine in that moment the panicked workings of the mind of that raging racist being corrected on the debate stage last night by two black women. the racism that donald trump grew up with, told him, promised him, that that kind of thing could never happen to him.

donald trump's niece, mary trump, will join us next to consider what her uncle experienced in being crushed by vice president kamala harris for an hour and a half on television seen around the world. clinical psychologist mary trump joins us next. next. cancelled plans? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp - and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. to help give you that forget-you-get migraine feeling. don't take if allergic to qulipta®. most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and sleepiness. learn how abbvie could help you save. qulipta®. the forget-you-get migraine medicine™. ♪(voya)♪ there are some things that work better together. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. voya helps you choose the right amounts without over or under investing. so you can feel confident in your financial choices voya, well planned, well invested, well protected.

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i'll tell you something, he's going to talk about immigration a lot tonight even when it is not the subject being raised. i'm going to do something unusual and invite you to attend one of donald trump's rallies because it is an interesting thing to watch. he talks about fictional characters like hannibal lecter. he will talk about windmills cause cancer and what you will also notice his people start leaving his rallies early out of exhaustion and boredom and i will tell you the one thing you will not hear him talk about is you. you will not hear him talk about

your needs, your dreams and your desires and i tell you, i believe you deserve a president who actually put you first and i pledge to you that i will. >> let me respond to this. she said people start leaving. people don't go to her rallies, there's no reason to go and the people that do go, she is busing them in and paying them to be there and showing them in a different light. so she can't talk about that. people don't leave my rallies. we have the biggest rallies, the most incredible rallies in the history of politics. >> joining us now is donald trump's niece, author of the new book, who could ever love you, a family memoir. we will talk about the book in a moment, but i want to begin with what we just heard. of course he has to lie about the harris campaign pays for crowds, which is how donald got his first audience when he came down the escalator at trump tower. he is the only one who's done that in politics.

your reaction. i want to give it to you, it's yours. whatever you want to tell us about what you think is important about the moment your uncle suffered through last night. >> first of all, lawrence, it is great to be with you, when we have something good to talk about for a change. the debate last night was so affirming for those of us who have been in this fight for years now and i think when vice president harris made those comments about donald's rallies, she inflict did a narcissistic wound from which he will never recover. it literally is going to determine how he handles the next 50 days or however many days there are until the election. he is going to be reacting to that from now on. it was a beautiful thing to see.

vice president harris threaded so many needles with brilliance, with surgical precision. she went after his weaknesses as a leader. his failures as a human being and probably, next to the rally sizes, the most important thing to him, his complete failure as a trust fund baby and she was absolutely accurate. donald didn't inherit $413 million. he was gifted and quote unquote loan to that much money while my grandfather was still alive and on top of that he inherited another $250 million. so she had his number and the way he reacted to her, the way he was incapable of looking at her was a perfect indication of the turmoil he was experiencing and the humiliation.

he will never get over it. >> take me into that, because i was watching his choice and with him i don't know if it is a choice. i don't even know if he is conscious enough to make a choice, but anyone else in that situation knows the camera is going to be on me all the time. when i am speaking and there is going to be the reaction shot. whenever i am not speaking i have to think about my reaction shot. kamala harris was just human. she did what a human would do. the other person speaks, she turns and listens to the other people speaking. he gave us the mug shot face like it was frozen the entire time. was he even aware of what he was doing or did he think, yes, this is what i need to show them in this moment? >> first of all i think referring to it as mug shot face is perfect and secondly, donald has no self-awareness.

he is only able to think about what he thinks he is projecting. so he thought, look at him there. he right now is thinking he looks tough, he looks mean, he looks like a killer and that is not at all how he comes across. he looks weak, he looks afraid and as you mentioned, he could not even face her. that is how she dominated him from the moment she crossed the stage and forced him to show her hand. >> tell me about the handshake because i'm watching his movements and you can see he is trying to get away. is there some way he can get away? what is he thinking? >> i think he was trying to set the tone and yes, he is shuffling in, thinking if i take long enough to get to the lectern, she will make this a

move and go to her lectern. he was not anticipating that she would walk over to him, no way. i have to be honest. part of me did not want her to shake his hands. not for technical reasons. i think it was a brilliant tactical move. it set the tone on her terms. i just didn't want her to have to touch him. >> i was thinking the same thing. there was a lot of suspense for me about would she shake his hand and i saw it either way, but when i saw the choice it went okay, she is way smarter than i am. that is exactly what to do and i would not have suggested it. >> neither would i, because again i have been about this since before the debate with president biden. not because i was prescient at all. i didn't want president biden to debate donald, not because i knew what would happen, but

because i didn't want him to be on the debate stage. he is as kamala harris said, a disgrace. he does not deserve any respect afforded to him. i felt the same way last night. however, she didn't have a choice. there was way too much upside for her. we know what donald trump's ceiling is. we do not know what the vice president's ceiling is and she showed us last night that it is much, much higher than anybody. not anybody. you do this, i knew this, a few other people knew this, but a lot of people did not know how high that ceiling probably is. >> so, kamala harris obviously reached into your professional realm, psychology, with some of the choices she made talking about his crowd size, which we know what that is with him. that is everything with him. how would you grade kamala harris on how she used psychological tools in that debate?

>> seriously i listened to every word. i have sensory watched many of the clips. i'm not saying this as a partisan. i'm saying this as someone who understands donald trump in a fairly deep way and as someone who knows what makes him tick and the reason i think the debate was so successful was yes, because she dominated him in a way that nobody else actually has been in a position to. she took full advantage of that. it needed to be a situation that he could not control. it needed to be a context that kind of hemmed him in and again i cannot think of anybody that would do a better job than she did. but she also created the kind of contrast you were speaking to earlier. she came across not just as brilliant, knowledgeable and

completely capable of taking over on day one. she came across as an empathetic, kind human being who listens. the kind of leader most of us have been craving for the last nine years and she showed donald trump to be a broken human being. well, he is human, just not a successful one. think about it this way. for his entire life, donald trump has existed on a very narrow band of the continuum of human emotion. he is trapped in grievance, rage, and fear of humiliation and for almost nine years he forced most of us to exist there with him. she opened the door to the dungeon and showed us that we can exist in the sunshine again and that was one of the most powerful things i have ever experienced.

>> brilliantly put as only you could. mary trump, i am so sorry. we have jammed ourselves out of time. i wanted to talk about your new book, who could ever love you. this is your second volume now about growing up trump and what we might learn about the former president in this book. please come back and we will discuss the book at another moment, we are just out of time tonight. >> thank you so much, lawrence. >> thank you for joining us. and when we come back i have a feeling that our next guest was also not surprised by what she saw her friend kamala harris due on the debate stage last night. maryland senate candidate angela alsobrooks will join us next. by millie bobby brown, only at america's best. talk about a big deal. get two pairs of florence by mills frames for $119.95, exclusively at america's best.

as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly

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i'm the only person on this stage who has prosecuted transnational criminal organizations for the trafficking of guns, drugs, and human beings and let me say that the united states congress, including some of the most conservative members of the united states senate came up with a border security bill which i supported and that bill would have put 1500 more border agents on the border to help those folks who are working right now, over time, trying to do their job. it would have allowed us to stem the flow of fentanyl coming into the united states. i know there are so many

families watching tonight who have been personally affected by the surge of fentanyl in our country. that bill would've put more resources to allow us to prosecute transnational criminal organizations for trafficking in drugs, guns, and human beings, but you know what happened to that bill? donald trump got on the phone and called up congress and said kill the bill. >> joining our discussion is the democratic nominee for senate in maryland, angela alsobrooks. thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you. >> what did you see last night? did you see the kamala harris you have always known? >> it was spectacular. what i was really excited about was i think the rest of the country got to see what we have known about kamala harris for a very long time. it was not just her brilliance. we saw the prosecutor building the case against donald trump, but one of the things that really stuck out to me was that kamala was able not only to handle donald trump, but she

never lost sight of the audience she was really there to talk to, the american people who she looked at and said, you know what? we don't have to accept the chaos we've seen. we don't have to accept division and hatred. we can move forward and i love that she was able to maintain that optimism, to really keep the american people front and center, even as she was handling donald trump and answering the questions, so i think she did a really brilliant job last night. >> donald trump said he is very proud of appointing those three supreme court justices who helped overturn roe v wade. the republican candidate you are running against in maryland is often referred to by the press, i have to say falsely in my view, as a so-called moderate republican. he has also praised donald trump's supreme court justices, saying that donald trump should get credit because he nominated incredible justices to the supreme court.

larry hogan, that republican candidate, is endorsed by donald trump for that reason and others. and so the future of reproductive freedom is not just at stake in the presidential election. obviously at stake in your senate elections and all senate elections. >> absolutely. mitch mcconnell handpicked larry hogan because he thought larry hogan would give republicans the best chance to flip the senate and what we know about mitch mcconnell, larry hogan, and donald trump is they all share that goal in common. you mentioned larry hogan complimented, he praised donald trump after roe had been overturned and said he deserves credit for his accomplishments. before that he also vetoed, just two years ago, abortion care legislation in the state of maryland and when he was overridden by the legislature, he withheld the funding to train abortion care providers across the state until governor

moore came into office. this is a person who has a very clear record. and antiabortion record. a person who does not support abortion rights as recent as two years ago. so any claim he is now going to support, this is not credible. we know no matter what if larry hogan is elected he will hand a majority day's what we know is if he is elected there will never be a vote to codify it in federal law because he would give a majority to people like mitch mcconnell, rick scott. think about lindsey graham, who have declared war on reproductive freedoms for women. >> people have to understand when you're casting your vote for senate, it is not just for an individual. you are casting a vote for who will be the majority party that controls the entire senate and everything that happens there and if you cast your vote for a

republican you are casting a vote for a continuation of the mitch mcconnell power structure with other people in place. >> that's absolutely right. this race is so much bigger than my opponent. this race is not only about the control of the senate. about an agenda for our country and the view we have for the future could not be more different. whether or not we will preserve the rights and freedoms that my 19-year-old daughter deserves. whether she will have fewer rights than her grandmother and whether she will make decisions about her own body. whether or not gun violence will continue to be the number one killer of children or whether we will pass sensible gun legislation. assault weapons, ghost guns. these are things by the way that my opponent vetoed and refused to sign legislation that would create sensible waiting periods for long guns in maryland. he refused legislation that would remove ghost guns. it is a very clear difference

and when we look at these justices who have rolled back our freedoms, not only that but voting rights and other things. it would be larry hogan who praised donald trump and said these are incredible supreme court justices. we absolutely cannot allow the majority to go to the republican party. >> maryland senate candidate, angela alsobrooks. thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you. >> thank you. polish-american fears of russian domination of poland could once again be a decisive factor in the presidential election after last night's debate, just as it was in 1976 when president gerald ford got that issue very wrong.

polish-american voters were surely listening last night when vice president harris spoke directly to them. that is next with stuart stevens. rt stevens. i felt like disconnecting. i asked my doctor about treating my td, and learned about ingrezza. ♪ ingrezza ♪ ingrezza is clinically proven for reducing td. most people saw results in just two weeks. people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds. number-one prescribed ingrezza has simple dosing for td: always one pill, once daily. ingrezza can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have a sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings or have thoughts of suicide. don't take ingrezza if you're allergic to its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including angioedema, potential heart rhythm problems, and abnormal movements. report fevers, stiff muscles, or problems thinking as these may be life threatening. sleepiness is the most common side effect. take control by asking your doctor

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there never will be under a ford administration. >> i'm sorry, did i understand you to say that the russians are not using eastern europe as their own sphere of influence and occupying most of the countries there and making sure with their troops that it is a communist zone. on our side of the line the italians and french are still flirting day >> i don't believe that yugoslavia considers themselves dominated by the soviet union. i don't believe the romanians consider themselves dominated by the soviet union. i don't believe that poland considers themselves dominated by the soviet union. >> of course eastern europe was suffering from soviet domination and president ford spent several days trying and failing to fix that statement. polish-american voters were very worried about domination of poland, just as polish-

american voters have every right to be worried about vladimir putin's attempt to seize ukraine which borders poland. russian dictators have a long history of regarding poland is theirs, so after last night's debate it is possible that polish-american voters could become the winning margin in pennsylvania and therefore deliver the presidency to kamala harris after she said this. >> putin's agenda is not just about ukraine. understand why the european allies and our nato allies are so thankful that you are no longer president and that we understand the importance of the greatest military alliance the world has ever known, which is nato, and what we have done to preserve the ability of zelenskyy and the ukrainians to fight for independence. otherwise putin would be sitting in kyiv with his eyes on the rest of europe, starting with poland and why don't you tell

the 800,000 polish americans in pennsylvania how quickly you would give up for the sake of favor and what you think is a friendship for what is known to be a dictator who would eat you for lunch. >> joining us now is stuart stevens, who met the age requirement for this segment of being old enough to remember the 1976 debate. a veteran of five presidential campaigns and a senior advisor for the lincoln project and the author of the conspiracy to end america, five ways my old party is driving democracy to autocracy. when i look back at the gerald ford moment, it is nothing compared to what kamala harris did last night with 800,000 people and polish americans in pennsylvania. >> you know as somebody who sat in a lot of presidential debate prep, i thought it was debate artistry. it was so well executed.

think about it. someone in the debate world -- it could've been the vice president herself -- thought about how to make ukraine relevant to voters in america. a specific set of voters and someone found out how many polish americans there are in pennsylvania and then to lay that out as if she delivered it countless times before, that is a very difficult thing to do. she made it look easy, like the great athletes do when they do extraordinary things. >> and finding the right moment for it because ukraine was in and out of the debate more than once. it is also astonishing to see that gerald ford moment. you see max franco from the new york times who cannot believe what he heard the president of the united states say and it also reminds people how tame debates used to be prior to donald trump.

that was the single biggest moment in all of presidential debating prior to donald trump. >> yeah, i feel nostalgic about that because it was held at a much higher intellectual level. where all these primary debates started to go, like freak shows and then you had the debate commission, which you don't have anymore. but i thought abc did a good job with the debate and one of the interesting things is under the old rules that are no longer in effect, obviously, they did not allow split screens. they would not show reactions from the person not speaking and i always thought that was odd because it was not the experience you would have in the room and last night the split screen was so telling of the differences between these candidates. if you turned down the sound and watched it you could see

who was dominating the debate. >> the human being versus the mug shot. stuart stevens, thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> we will be right back. it ain't my dad's razor, dad. ay watch it! it's from gillettelabs. this green bar releases trapped hairs from my face... gamechanga! ...while the flexdisc contours to it. so the five blades can get virtually every hair in one stroke. for the ultimate gillette shaving experience. the best a man can get is gillettelabs. thursday night football on prime. it's on. ready to have some fun? it's buffalo versus miami, as thursday night football is back.

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